Saffron: back to the original topic
ok so here we go
let's say we've got these two people
10:54 PM and they're like "oh gee whiz let's make babies"
well if they do that, then out of justice to (1) the woman and (2) the child, they need to make a pact that they're going to stick around and help and support one another
10:55 PM but if they make the pact with the condition thrown in "if I get sick of you I'm out of here", then it's not really any good as a pact
because "getting sick of you" could happen any day
so it's really got to be for life for it to work out right
10:56 PM no-fault divorce is an injustice, chiefly to women and children
because it creates a norm in which people aren't making that kind of pact that's going to keep safe and do justice to their partners and kids
this is how marriage comes to be
because it needs to be
10:57 PM it's oriented toward procreation
because that's why it came into being in the first place
marriage is just that thing
10:58 PM make sense?
Saffron: i have 19 minutes of battery life, so can i tackle a side route and come back to this tomorrow?
Saffron: ok, so what about state benefits of marriage?
things like health care and hospital visitation rights etc.
10:59 PM surely part of marriage is care not only for children but for each other, and mutual care is not something we want to inhibit even if we don't want to sanctify it
so, lets say you have two old widows who live together and care for an orphan
one of them gets sick and is put in the hospital
11:00 PM should her friend the other widow be able to visit?
are they in a friendship that's deep and very close?
yes absolutely, maybe closer than many spouses
do they care for the child?
but they care for the child not out of teh demands of justice but out of charity
11:01 PM it was someone else's responsiblity to raise that child
but these women are kind and giving and they have poured themselves freely into the task
now state benefits
why should the state give benefits to married people?
11:02 PM first, as an incentive for citizens to marry, because children are good for society
second, as a recognition of the labor and service and difficulties the parents encounter while rearing children
11:03 PM should the state not give benefits to our old widows? I don't see why. The state funds orphanages and foster homes. Inasmuch as they're doing a good service to that young man it should be condoned and encouraged
but should it give them benefits as two old ladies living together who love each other deeply and take care of each other?
I don't see why.
11:04 PM why not give benefits to every pair of friends or chance lovers
you see? it doesn't really have the same kick to it
give them what's proper as regards their state, but don't pretend that they're married and gneerating kids for the commnity
11:05 PM because they're not
it would be silly to pretend tha they are
Saffron: wait so you are pro or anti them having the state benefits of marriage (visitation rights, they can be on each others health insurance, etc)?
11:06 PM Zebediah: I'm pro visitation rights
and pro whatever's actually fair and necessary for their state of life
but I don't think beyond what's fair and necessary they should be given extra incentives the way married people are
11:07 PM Saffron: what are other incentives for marriage?
Zebediah: tax breaks, presumably
Saffron: that's only for children. even married couples w/out kids don't get those
Zebediah: oh ok
Saffron: and unmarried couples with kids do
Zebediah: see another thing
the state can incentivize whatever it wants
if it wants to give a billion dollars to people who eat 20 dumdums a month, that's grea
11:08 PM I don't care
but if it said "people who eat 20 dumdums a month are going to now qualify for all our anti-poverty support and food stamps and be officially designated "impoverished"" I would say
that's totally ridiculous
11:09 PM Saffron: i guess i just don't see why it's ok for the state to go about certifying marriages that aren't really marriages and that it could have no way of knowing whether they are marriages or not, and then at the same time saying that it can't certify other marriages just because they're a different kind of invalid
11:10 PM Zebediah: I agree with you all the way
11:11 PM but if someone you know makes one mistake, should you say "oh, well I guess you already made a mistake so you should just complete give up on the matter and say whatever"
11:12 PM Saffron: i mean, why not have it just be civil unions then? in that case there's no confusion about whether or not a government marriage is really a marriage? there's no intention, no religion, no God involved, just a contractual relationship.between two people that bring benefits so long as the relationship endures
Zebediah: If someone mistakes a fox for a kind of dog, is it okay for them to start calling elephants dogs too?
me: sure civil unions all the way
11:13 PM as far as this issue goes
but once we clear up the marriage thing
we move into another thing, which is to what extent sodomy is something the state should be condoning
11:14 PM Saffron: ahhhhh so this is the real problem for you?
it's a totally distinct problem, actually
Saffron: but it is A real problem for you
but with marriage you cna just argue from what marriage obviously is
with this one you're really arguing about the proper exercise of sexual faculties
11:15 PM which is obviously a much broader question
and this one is less about justice and more about temperance